Acquisition Series | Mimi Nguyen from Genesys on Innovating Through Acquisition

Episode Transcription

Claire Lew:                   We had no idea if it was going to work. We had no idea if all of a sudden our revenue would go to zero in the following month. The only way we felt like we could validate it was to ship it.

Anna Eaglin:                 This product-

Christian Beck:             Are we recording?

Anna Eaglin:                 Oh, my God.

Anna Eaglin:                 Better Product. The only show that takes it behind the scenes look into how digital products are created.

Christian Beck:             The businesses built around them and how you too can innovate better product. I'm Christian.

Anna Eaglin:                 I'm Anna.

Christian Beck:             Welcome to today's show.

Christian Beck:             When going down the rabbit holes on Twitter-

Anna Eaglin:                 No. Please stop.

Christian Beck:             Yeah, sorry. That did sound weird. Let me start over. I came across this week's guest via Twitter and quickly went down the internet rabbit hole. And the more digging I did, the more interested I became. Claire Lew is the CEO of Know Your Team, a company focused on helping leaders become better at, well, leading. What I'm excited to share with our listeners is how she built a product company, based on the behavior of others.

Anna Eaglin:                 Before her current role, Claire was developing her own consulting and coaching business, so why even build a product company?

Claire Lew:                   I've always thought that, while you can have a really deep impact, one to one, when you're doing any sort of consulting or coaching, the reason that you build a product is ultimately to help as many people as possible.

Christian Beck:             While continuing to build her consulting firm, she created a prototype of what one day could be the product she's envisioned. But that's not exactly how things shook out.

Claire Lew:                   And it was around that time where I was actually building my own prototype for what a product could look like, that my very first initial coaching and consulting client, they were the founders of Base Camp, they actually approached me. And I had done a consulting project for them and they said, "Claire, we are actually building this tool internally. It's called Know Your Company. It's all about helping CEOs get to know their company better. It's actually doing kind of well, but we don't know what to do with it".

Anna Eaglin:                 Wait. So what happened?

Claire Lew:                   And they said, "Claire, we have this crazy idea. What if we spun off Know Your Company to be its own separate company and you became the CEO? And you would run it and it would be its own separate LLC and you grow the whole thing, and we'll split equity 50/50, but it's yours. What do you think?" And this was about six years ago, and I said, "Yes".

Christian Beck:             She said yes and the story's over. Just kidding. Initially, she positioned the product as a tool for CEOs, but found that the real problem to solve was in helping managers. As a result, they did a complete relaunch from product, to marketing, to the pricing model. You name it, they changed it.

Anna Eaglin:                 Before we go further, I do think it's interesting to share with our listeners what their initial pricing model was, which was based on a onetime fee. It was $100 per person, one time. So why that pricing model?

Claire Lew:                   So the reason, originally that we kept the pricing was because it aligned its cost and what we were asking people to pay was really the way we wanted people to use it. So that was the original reasoning.

Claire Lew:                   The second reason we ended up staying with it is because it got us to profitability as a company extremely quickly. So we were profitable in our first month because of it. And when you actually model out with the lifetime value would have been to capture that same amount of cash, it was crazy. It was like if we had done maybe a monthly subscription pricing model, it would have taken almost two years to get to profitability.

Christian Beck:             They aligned their product and its initial pricing with what the product was intended for, which was to instigate a cultural change.

Anna Eaglin:                 As the company changed, quite literally everything changed. The pricing model transitioned right along with the philosophy of the company. But how? Why? Great questions and that's where we'll start.

Claire Lew:                   So one of the most fascinating data points that we started to observe after the first few years of Know Your Company is we started to see a huge increase in the number of people who were reading our blog. So if you got to knowyourteam.comblog, we have hundreds and thousands of people who read our articles about the top tips to run one on one meetings, how do you give feedback to someone who isn't doing well. All sorts of different topics. Our organic traffic, in the span of less than a year, I think increased by 21x. It was kind of crazy. And keep in mind, no paid ads, nothing. This is all just SEO stuff we're doing ourselves.

Claire Lew:                   And that's great, but here's the thing. We did not notice our leads increasing by 21x. We're like, huh, if anything they were pretty stable if not flat, and as a result, sales weren't massively increasing along with our blog traffic increasing, and we're scratching our heads going, what's going on here? And the more we looked into it, the more that we realized that what was happening was the people who were coming to read our stuff weren't just CEO's who were looking to get more feedback from their team. But they were actually, as I mentioned, new managers who wanted to become better.

Claire Lew:                   So we actually had the opposite problem that most startups have or most product teams have, which is we had an audience, but we didn't have the product for it. And what most folks face is you have a product but you don't have the audience. So when we realized, Oh gosh, I guess we've got to redo the product. That was when we decided to make that transition.

Christian Beck:             How do you uncover who your audience is, that was reading? What did you do to figure out that they were not the people you thought that they were?

Claire Lew:                   More art than science, very frankly. So one was just looking at which posts were getting the most traffic. So just based off topic and from there intuiting, okay, if it's a post about what to do in my first two weeks as a new manager, likely that's going to be more an audience focus towards new managers, than established CEOs. And that was just across the board in terms of comparing traffic of articles to topics. So again, not pure science, but at least giving us a rough picture of what the reality actually was. That was one bucket.

Claire Lew:                   Another bucket of things is obviously interviews that we did of folks who were either buying the product or trying out the product and deciding not to buy. Understanding who was actually attracted to what we were saying, versus not. So that was another bucket.

Claire Lew:                   Third, and this is really interesting, is we actually happened to launch a tangential product, which was something that we now have integrated in Know Your Team, but at the time, it was separate. And that was the water cooler, which is our online global community of over a thousand managers that learn from each other.

Claire Lew:                   And at the time it was separate. It was this separate little thing that we launched as an experiment because we felt like folks just needed it. Where you go to become to talk with peers about how to become a better leader. And it really took off. A community is really hard to build traction around. You have that whole sort of a marketplace issue. And we saw incredible growth in the membership there, and we charge $20 a month for that.

Claire Lew:                   So that was another interesting data point of, huh, our leads around Know Your Company are staying flat, but the water cooler seems to increase like crazy. What's going on there? And yeah, I would say those are probably the main buckets of how we were able to assemble that picture.

Christian Beck:             Did you make changes during that time period too, when you're starting to notice those? For example, did you start writing different content during that time to vet out some of your hypothesis?

Claire Lew:                   Yes. Yes, that's exactly what we did. I actually even started writing. So, as I mentioned in our knowledge center in Know Your Team today, we have these guides that we offer. So it's over a hundred different chapters on everything from getting honest feedback to giving feedback, et cetera. And I started to write those guides and release them separately, publicly to also test the market there.

Claire Lew:                   So we were doing all sorts of things from writing content people would have to pay for, to test when people even pay. Who are these people? We asked people, in order to buy it or have access to the guide when we were selling them separately, to input some information about themselves. Just demographic information. And the overwhelming majority were managers. Like 90% or managers.

Claire Lew:                   And then the other thing, as you were mentioning, Christian is just on our blog, I started being a lot more purposeful in terms of trying to really write pieces that would target that specific audience to test that.

Anna Eaglin:                 The one thing I was thinking while you're talking, Claire, is that you said you were seeing these people come to consume the content and they're not your target audience. How were you not freaking out? Just being like, "Oh my gosh. I'm not getting to the right audience. I need to what I'm writing to get to the right audience", as opposed to being like, "Wow, I'm hitting a different nerve. I need to shift courses".

Claire Lew:                   I think it's because the content we were writing was resonating so strongly. I would get emails from people, and still to this day from folks who would say, "This article, I mean it sounds like an exaggeration, but changed my life. My team is running so much better. And thank you for helping me actually have some sort of light on this crazy dark path of being a new manager. I had no idea what I was doing until I read this. Or I just implemented this suggestion". And they were all managers, for the most part.

Claire Lew:                   So I think it was more so the almost visceral reaction that we were seeing that caused us to sort of pay attention. And then here's the other thing too, that we were definitely in tune to, which was the market. About five or six years ago, the employee engagement survey tool space was not crowded at all. It was really new. There weren't a lot of tools, if any. And today, it's super crowded. There's so many different tools that you can use to ask your team different questions and to get feedback. No shortage of pulse question tools. And we were understanding that the market was getting more crowded.

Claire Lew:                   At the same time, what we noticed is the market around new management leadership training was not only huge, but there also just weren't very many if any good software focus solutions in that space. And so it was also observing that overall trend where we were thinking, okay, maybe a switch and actually focus and market focus makes sense.

Claire Lew:                   But the last thing that I'll share is in terms of how we felt, like the emotional reaction in [inaudible 00:10:56] to watching a product that you have poured your entire life and guts and soul into, not really resonating particularly, or rather not matching up with a bunch of people who are really liking your marketing pieces. It's terrifying. It's like, what do I do?

Claire Lew:                   As much data as we had collected and as much testing as we were doing, when we did sort of push the button and make the switch from Know Your Company to Know Your Team, we had no idea if it was going to work. We had no idea if all of a sudden our revenue would go to zero in the following month. The only way we felt like we could validate it was to ship it.

Anna Eaglin:                 Well, I really like what you said, that it wasn't just the quantitative side of seeing an increase of readers. It sounded like you really were hitting a nerve with people and it was the strength of their response is what seemed to like really push you in the direction of pivoting toward that market.

Claire Lew:                   Yeah, I think it's like a patchwork quilt that you assemble, though. I think a lot of the questions that both of you have been asking, which are wonderful questions, are around what is the gleaning insight that sort of yells at you, "You need to do X"? and the fact of the matter is, and I'm sure it is with so many different founders and folks that you've had on this podcast will tell you, there is never this person waving a big sign being like, "Go in this direction now". That never happened. It's never obvious.

Claire Lew:                   Even to this day, I'm like, are we still in the right path? You question yourself constantly, but it's never obvious. And I think there's only so much research that you can do and this isn't to justify making decisions from the hip and shooting from the hip by any means. But I guess what I am trying to say is also though, leaning on the other side of things and waiting for that magic, huge, big sign that just lights up and is telling you something, that doesn't really happen either, at least in my experience.

Christian Beck:             The other thing you mentioned that was happening at that time was an experimental community that you'd put out there, the water cooler community. So it seems like there was the market, maybe that was changing and then you were seeing people in the content. But then you also, whether you had the foresight or intuition to experiment with something, you'd put that out there. So what was the reason that you had even put out that water cooler community to begin with?

Claire Lew:                   Yeah. So I left that product decision entirely to my business partner and CTO, Daniel Lopez, who is absolutely brilliant. He used to be the director of product for IFTTT, If This Then That, and he joined us to work with us in the past few years. And it was his idea, and I admittedly thought it was a terrible idea, which I'm happy to go on record to say. You sometimes can't tell if something's going to be a good idea. And I thought this might be distracting. It doesn't line up with our core audience. And communities are hard. They seem easy, but they're not. To do them really well, they're hard. But the reason he convinced me is he said, "Claire, a good one doesn't exist and people are wanting this".

Claire Lew:                   And there were some in the sense that there are some slack communities that you can be a part of. But his thought was, what about more of in depth discussion rooms and threads on specific topics, like individual performance and culture and even personal improvement as a leader? Because the hardest part with any community is you have to have some sort of initial activity and value and content that's going on, in order for other people to join. So what we did is we gave free membership to all existing, at the time, Know Your Company customers. I personally seated the community with a ton, hundreds of initial topics for people to talk about. And it was amazing. People loved it.

Claire Lew:                   So to go to back to your question of how did we have the foresight to do it? It's a really terrible example. I think of being more methodical about experimentation. It was quite frankly more of a personal observation that Daniel was making. One thing I will give us credit for is just the audacity to build something small and just try it, and feel like if it didn't work, we would always just shut it down. And it didn't need to be part of this whole big grand strategy initially, but let's give it a shot.

Christian Beck:             We're always interested to see products that are based off of philosophy or based off of trying to change behaviors, because a lot of tech products are really sort of filling business function gaps. But yours is filling a gap that's really interpersonal. So I'm curious, how do you translate what your vision is, what you think is best practice for leaders into an actual tech product? How does that actually, the translation between what's in your head make it into the product itself?

Claire Lew:                   I feel like I try to answer that question every single day. It's a continual processing question that we try to answer. So the way that we thought about it is, okay, once we have the methodology where it's education, tools and then community is what is the most practical, direct, delightful, lightweight way to ensure that people can consume that information? What are formats that people are familiar with, so we're not asking them to do anything crazy, and in a way that gives us a lot of flexibility to change the material as we go? So that's what we optimize for there.

Claire Lew:                   In the tool piece, the way that we thought about it really was in terms of the biggest pain points and areas that we felt like we could save people time. So the beauty of tools, and anytime you create a product, actually isn't in helping the person learn the thing, to be very frank with you. When you turn on a piece of software that is telling you that it's going to make you better, it actually doesn't really make you better. What it usually does is it make something easier for you or it saves time. So that's the way we thought about the tool. Okay, we have this education and this methodology and basis of knowledge, but the tools are actually how you are going to apply it, and it's really all about making things easier and saving time. So what are the areas for a manager that we can save them this time and make things the easiest for them?

Claire Lew:                   So again, these pieces in the tool are about making things easier and saving time, not necessarily trying to change behavior. That is literally the hardest thing to do, period. And the expectation that software is going to dramatically do that, in my opinion, it's almost not the point, especially when it's personal behavior change, again, if we focus on making things easier and saving time.

Claire Lew:                   And then the community. It was something that we already had built, it was something that was already working. So that was a lot less hard to think about the best way to integrate that into the platform. And in our opinion, if really what outcome we're looking for is ultimate behavior change, then we know that we actually have to have these two other parts. We have to have the knowledge piece and then we have to have the support of the community. Again that's just based off our philosophy and is what is the foundation for our methodology.

Christian Beck:             Yeah. I am with Anna. I thought that your explanation is really articulate and I think that it speaks to ... When I first looked at Know Your Team and just saw the general premise, even though I'm in technology, I always take a very skeptical viewpoint of things like that because to me, it is antithetical to like human behavior to say that you would correct it with technology.

Christian Beck:             And you're right, especially with more AI and machine learning, there's so many applications that are trying to do things for you or make recommendations and make doing all these things, that sort of take the human side out of it. But the way that you're articulating this is really compelling, and I think it's actually really something worth repeating, I think you said, if I paraphrase right, that tools should make something easier or save you time, and you kind of just stopped there. And your tool is basically making things easier. You're not conducting the one on one meetings, but you're making them easier to record, or easier to set up, or easier to record progress. But you're not actually going any further and making bigger claims than that.

Claire Lew:                   Absolutely. It's not about replacing the person, nor replacing your capability as a person. I'm sure we'll get there with technology. I have no doubt. But is it as good? And what I mean by good is not is it as close to what humans can do, but is it with the same fidelity and quality in terms of what we want those interactions to look like?

Claire Lew:                   Leadership is tricky. It is a thing that, for example, for as many definitions there are of leadership, and Aristotle I believe was the first one to come up with a definition of leadership, there literally are as many definitions as there are people who have attempted to define it. It is all over the place. It is completely nebulous, and because of that it's really, really difficult to learn how to do. And it's personal to each person.

Claire Lew:                   So rather than saying, "Let us do it for you". Or, "Here's how you have to do it", what we instead say is, "We've literally distilled truly hundreds of years of research for you to be able to know only just what you need to know. A certain set of frameworks that are going to be most useful. And then we'll give you tools to save you time and to help make applying those frameworks a little bit easier. We're not going to do it for you, but we'll make it easier for you and save you the time, and help you actually learn why and what it is you should be doing".

Christian Beck:             And if you make software that makes humans better managers, that keeps the robots from taking over, that's all the better, so we really appreciate that. The longer we keep robots from becoming our bosses.

Christian Beck:             I just wanted to ask, did you learn how to watercolor from Northwestern?

Claire Lew:                   I did not. Yeah. I did not actually.

Christian Beck:             Was that self taught?

Claire Lew:                   My mom is an incredible artist and so she taught me some things. A lot of it is self taught. I actually thought about art school before going to Northwestern. And painting and art has been a huge part of my life for a really long time.

Christian Beck:             Well, I'm not an art critic. I'm good at design critique, but looking at yourself, it's amazing. So I just had to ask if that was. Because it wasn't in your LinkedIn. I thought, Oh, she must have had a BA in fine arts or something. But no. Your work's really nice.

Claire Lew:                   Thank you. I so appreciate that.

Christian Beck:             So now, the real final question, Anna will give you.

Anna Eaglin:                 So Claire, what does better product mean to you?

Claire Lew:                   To me, better product is a mechanism for helping us make progress in a way that we want to make progress. And this is just my philosophy or take on product and building product overall, which is that there's an outcome and a desired resulting state that we want, and the product itself is not that outcome. The product itself is not the end result. It's the enabler and it's the means to creating that. So in my view, the more you can get out of the way, the more you can really just help make that path and make that progress easier. To me, that's the best definition of what a better product is.

Christian Beck:             I'll just come right out and say that that was one of my favorite interviews that we've done, and I felt like we could have talked to Claire for hours longer.

Anna Eaglin:                 Definitely.

Christian Beck:             She was really good at articulating a lot of really key problems that I think a lot of founders face, but can't actually articulate. So that was really helpful.

Christian Beck:             So it's hard to focus on just one thing, but if we were to focus on one thing, which we're going to try to do, I think it's really about the transition that she made from Know Your Company to Know Your Team. I think that provided a lot of insights that people will find interesting. The whole, oh, startups and pivoting and product market fit. I think a lot of that stuff is baked in there. But some of the stuff she did was kind of unusual and against the grain, starting with the pricing model. So I think that's where we should start.

Anna Eaglin:                 The story she told about how their content was going up, how they were seeing a 20% increase in people reading their content, but they found that their leads were not increasing. And so I think some of the entrepreneurs that we've talked to, they'll see these metrics and a lot of times people will sit on these metrics or they'll do something else. But she actually decided to pivot the whole company to really focus on this new market. And that's a really scary thing to do, I would imagine.

Christian Beck:             Yeah. And although she didn't seem very scared, but she, she had, she admitted it-

Anna Eaglin:                 I have the word terrifying written down, with a lot of exclamation points.

Christian Beck:             Did she say that word?

Anna Eaglin:                 I think she said that. I don't know if I felt that for her. I think she might have said that.

Christian Beck:             It was coming through in the interview.

Anna Eaglin:                 Either way. Yes.

Christian Beck:             There was some terrifying stuff.

Christian Beck:             I always think when people talk about that in the terrifying part of it's got to be hard to figure out, do I shift, or is there something wrong with it, or do I get this to work? When we pushed on that, it's almost like triangulating this to make sure she's doing the right thing. You can't just say, that our content was not working. A lot of people would say, "Well, you need to write different content".

Christian Beck:             But she had this other thing which is the water cooler community, which I thought was really interesting, and she admitted wasn't exactly her idea. But that, I think was that second major piece that helped her feel comfortable that a shift was in order.

Anna Eaglin:                 Yeah. It ties back to a lot of what we talked about in the community series where, not only is your community great for building a captive audience, but they can almost be a litmus test for you to test out new ideas and test out new features. And it sounds like, because of what she was seeing in the community, it really did validate this hypothesis they had, that new managers would be the ones who would really benefit from the product.

Anna Eaglin:                 The other thing she said, I really liked, although you would assume I would like it, she said, "You can only do so much research". And as a researcher, I 100% agree. You can't research it to death. So it sounds like they went out, they validated this hypothesis in a way, but really they just had to build it. Her quote, I like a lot, "There's only so much research you can do".

Christian Beck:             As a researcher, I think I would be remiss if I didn't ask you why do you agree with that? I think a lot of people would expect that and say, "Oh, she's a researcher. She wouldn't want to research for months and months and months".

Anna Eaglin:                 Yeah.

Christian Beck:             But, in your opinion, why do you think just enough research in this case is appropriate?

Anna Eaglin:                 Well, there's a great book by Erika Hall called Just Enough Research.

Christian Beck:             That's true. I did accidentally quote a book title.

Anna Eaglin:                 Which is a great book, and Erika Hall is a shining beacon of user research, I think we all are happy to stand in the light of.

Anna Eaglin:                 But I think when we say research, I think people sometimes confuse the research we do for product with scientific research, where we are measuring things that are always true in every situation, like gravity. And it's not. We do research to be more educated and to make better assumptions, really. You can only do so much research and at some point you just have to take a leap, and research can't give you all the answers, but it can definitely put you in a better direction.

Christian Beck:             It's also interesting, using the concept of research applied to community. And I think we covered this a little bit in our community series, but maybe not to this degree, where having a community that's around where you provide a platform for people to talk about their problems, it's easier lift to do research.

Christian Beck:             I think a lot of times right now if you think about research like, well I've got to go out and conduct an interview or a focus group or whatever, but in community, basically it comes to you. And so what they didn't really articulate is that Claire has been able to do this with just two core people in the company. So how can you do research with that? Well, one of the ways that you can scale research is build a community and let people talk to each other. And then some of that just comes to you for free.

Christian Beck:             So I think while that wasn't articulated in this quite this way, I think that was one of the smart reasons the community, the watercooler community that they had, really helped save them even more time making mistakes that they might've ended up making without it.

Anna Eaglin:                 And I think, going back to the community itself, one thing that we shouldn't undervalue is that they purposely built this community. Again, I think she initially wasn't onboard with the idea, but once the idea was floated, she stacked this community with people she wanted in there. So she gave everyone a free membership to all of their existing customers. And I think that's another important aspect of this. It wasn't just that they just happened upon this community. They intentionally built it.

Christian Beck:             Yeah. And to add one more thing under that too. We kind of mentioned this wasn't something that Claire really wanted to do, but she sort of green-lighted it. And I think that's important when you're in the early stages of product companies, everybody's not going to be aligned on everything. But as long as everybody on the team understands a higher mission, it leaves you open to try things like this.

Christian Beck:             So even though she wasn't necessarily behind the watercooler idea, she was behind why. The why behind it. So it comes out and then she's happy to admit she was proven wrong, and it was very successful. So I think that, that's another key piece I would hope people pick up on too, at these phases, to be open to these things. And as long as your core mission is understood by everybody, then you can be comfortable that the experiments will be fruitful in the end.

Anna Eaglin:                 The thing she talked about, I really liked too was the three phased approach to their product. Her product philosophy too is, a product should make life easier or save you time, but it's not going to change your behavior. It's the other two pieces of the product that really will help drive the behavior change. One is the knowledge and two is the community, which is that social pressure to apply the things that you're learning.

Anna Eaglin:                 So I think it's interesting that they're not just depending on the product to do the work, it's all of these things together. And understanding the psychology of what it takes to change someone's behavior, not just, "Oh, here's this product. Everyone will use it and everyone will just understand why it's important". Because she even said that to us in the beginning. We asked her how does it make you a good leader? And she said, "Well let me step back and tell you why it is important to be a good leader". That's not something we can just take for granted.

Christian Beck:             Yeah. It's almost as if the product she's building is one part tech and one part content. And I don't know if that's necessarily unique in and of itself, but I think the seriousness, like you said, of which they take having knowledge resources for people as important, because somebody who would want to automate this sort of training would take a much different approach and try to create automatic recommendations, or a manager logs in one day and there's just some automated things for them to do, or maybe it even reaches out to their employees for them.

Christian Beck:             But their approach was much different. They saw behavior change by not having tech do too much for you and it just supports what you're doing, and then giving you the knowledge resources that help you do better in between.

Christian Beck:             When do you think this approach is appropriate for product companies, of having a hybrid of content and tech?

Anna Eaglin:                 I think we see some companies that rely too heavily on their tech and I think we see some companies that rely too heavily on their content. And I think it's about striking that balance between the two.

Anna Eaglin:                 If you're too content heavy, then you won't have a very robust solution to solve the problems and help people accomplish their goals. If you're too tech heavy, you're going to take for granted the why? And I agree with what she says, that a product should either make things easier or save you time. So I think it really is that balance of the two.

Anna Eaglin:                 And depending on what you are trying, what you're solving for people and what you want them to do. I think it ties back to Hubert Palan with productboard. Another philosophy driven product. He didn't talk much about their content, but the content I would imagine is really part of the product. Why are you doing it this way? Why you should be talking to users. Why you should have organized sprints. Yeah, I think it's a balance. What do you think?

Christian Beck:             Well, I think I would love to check in with Know Your Team in two years and some of their users, because as you're talking, I'm also thinking about the first manager that starts using this in an organization would start improving and then it would be noticeable to other managers like, "Hey, you seem to be doing really, really well. What's your secret?"

Christian Beck:             "Oh, it's this". They get onboarded. Which is a little bit different than the way a product like Slack would grow. Slack grows because you need other people to start using it and then you sign in, log in and it creates this communication. This, almost the impact of the product, the way it expands inside of a company is almost like by behavior change. It's almost like growing virally in a slightly different way. But the cool thing is because it's tech and content, it can still scale. So it's not as if she can't support hundreds of users in an organization. She still can. It's just the way it is, the tool is only a smaller piece than it would be for other companies.

Anna Eaglin:                 Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. If you haven't yet, be sure to subscribe, rate and review this podcast. Until then, visit innovatemap.com/podcast and subscribe to learn how you can take your product to the next level.

Anna Eaglin:                 As always, we're curious, what does better product mean to you? Hit us up on twitter at Innovatemap, or shoot us an email at podcastatinnovatemap.com.

Christian Beck:             I'm Christian.

Anna Eaglin:                 And I'm Anna, and you've been listening to Better Product.

Christian Beck:             Better Product.

Anna Eaglin:                 Drop Mic.