Series Launch: Product Brand with Andy Kennedy, Innovatemap

Episode Transcription

Christian:

And we're back with the new series. This one is a topic that doesn't get a lot of attention in the product world, but it's still critically important. In this series, we're going to focus on product brand and how it can be a business driver. It's been a topic we've touched on a little bit on this show with a few episodes. But this is the first time that we're actually going to have it as a distinct focus, because I think it's something that doesn't get discussed a lot in the product world.

So I'm sure all of you know what brand is, but we are isolating product brand. And it may sound like splitting hairs, but it's actually an important nuance because it's often misunderstood. But don't worry, it's not just going to be me explaining it to you. I have an expert here with me today, the one and only Andy Kennedy. Hey Andy.

Andy Kennedy:

Hey Christian. Thanks for having me on.

Christian:

So this warning, everybody going into this one, if you're wondering, how do these two guys have such amazing chemistry, it's because we work together and we've worked together for gosh, four years now, I think.

Andy Kennedy:

Four years.

Christian:

Yeah. So for those of you who may forget this in addition to co-hosting this podcast with Anna Eaglin and who's not here today because she's busy doing very important product management work right now. Innovatemap is my day job. And at Innovatemap when we started the agency back in 2014, we had a product focus and that was primarily on product management, UX design, which is my background, really in product marketing with positioning and messaging and strategy. What we didn't actually start the agency with was brand. And that's why it's important to cover now, because I think the industry itself really wasn't thinking about product brand like that. So we went out and found ourselves Andy Kennedy. And today Andy is a principal at Innovatemap, overseeing our brand. And works a lot with words and copy and visual design, and leads our brand design team.

Does a lot, works a lot leading brand for a lot of startups, some scale ups, all the way from seed stage, all the way through acquisition. So I'm really excited to have Andy here today. So for this, we're going to have a little bit of a conversation. I'll still be asking the questions, but we're going to have some good conversations around what product brand is. So while you aren't going to hear Anna Eaglin this time, you might hear Ellie who is our better product community manager, which of course, if you are subscribing and you are in the community, you know the name really well. But you may hear her voice on here as well. She's going to help out with some questions today.

Andy, before we get started, I always like to build up credentials. I think I have kicked it off really well, but before we get to you sharing all of your words of wisdom, can you give our audience a quick background on yourself and why you should be trusted about brand.

Andy Kennedy:

Oh okay, background for me professionally? So I've been in the agency world for my entire career, which is now 10 years. I was at a digital interactive agency in Austin, Texas right out of school. Started my own agency, was there for three years as kind of a brand strategist and creative director, helping companies of all types of organizations and people communicate who they are. Did some city branding at the time, did a little bit of tech. That was a precursor to my time at Innovatemap.

Yeah. And so did a couple projects with Innovatemap when I was doing freelance work and really just loved the model. Since then, man, I don't even know what the number is, but it's a lot of fun. Let's just say a couple dozen brands all the way from pre-name, pre-revenue, pre-product startups that you have a founder coming in the door with big vision and you get to take them from soup to nuts and name the company, do the brand identity, to scaling companies who have had product market fit or really trying to go to the next level.

Maybe they're introducing a major new feature or they're going after a new market or yeah, they're expanding geos and the brand just needs to grow up because it no longer reflects who the company is. All the way then to bigger corporations where their core offering is not digital. They're considering introducing additional digital offerings as sort of compliments to their core business. And they need to figure out how that fits alongside of their core business from a brand hierarchy perspective and a brand value perspective. In all of those, I play a creative director role coming alongside, weaving together the goals of the business, and really at the intersection of art and commerce so that we can figure out how these companies can tell their story and use design so that people get it and get what they do and want to use their products.

Christian:

That's great. That's a wonderful overview. So now everybody knows to listen up to this conversation on brand with Andy Kennedy. So let's get into it. All right. Well, let's start with the existential question. The question that we talked about before recording about what the answer to this question was going to be is what is product brand?

Andy Kennedy:

Actually, the intro was fantastic Christian. I had a chance to think about this. So every business needs to embrace brand as a sort of a business differentiator and there's different ways that brand applies to different business categories. And I like to think about product brand as the unique ways that a product led company needs to embrace the principles of brand design. So brand at the really highest level is you're shaping people's opinions about your business and product companies have really distinct touch points and places, and challenges in helping their specific audiences think specific things about them because they're digital native, they don't have a storefront, they're less and less as specifically as you think B to C or B to [inaudible 00:06:08], less and less customer service touch points.

So a lot of times they're self service. And so those are just a few of the unique challenges that product led businesses face, as it relates to shaping the way that their audiences think about them. And so product brand is it's using the principles of brand identity, design and brand thinking for product led companies.

Christian:

Do you think that there's a distinction between ... you talk about product for the digital world. Do you think that there is a difference in the way brand works or should work in that world versus what we traditionally think of brand? If we think about like, if anybody's watched the series Mad Men or anything like that, when we think of brand or we think like old school brands or ad agencies, when we contrast those worlds, do you think that there are any differences between doing it for digital products versus those worlds?

Andy Kennedy:

So I think the principles are very similar. I think the touch points, the interactions, the moments to shape your audience's opinions changed. You mentioned Mad Men, fifties and sixties. You're shaping a lot of opinions via mass media. And consumers were not yet turned off by that. They actually were willing to have their opinions about businesses to be shaped through advertising, through mass marketing. Now, I grew up in the nineties and so I was a big Wheaties fan, big Gatorade fan, big MJ fan. I was drinking all the brand Kool-Aid in the nineties, trust me. But we've grown a little bit jaded by advertising. And so now, we're forming our opinions about businesses so differently. And specifically with product led businesses, yeah, the actual interaction with the brand inside of the digital product itself is a huge brand experience right there.

Right. You think about the ... just name a physical product that I think has a fantastic brand and that's Tesla, right? A company that's done zero advertising, zero advertising. So why are their stock prices through the roof? They're valued at more than the big three automakers in their market cap? What is that, right? Their physical product itself is phenomenal. And then they have a bunch of fanboys and they're fantastic at PR. But they're physical product, it inspires people, it's different. There's over the air updates as the minimalist design. And so in the same way as the Tesla's physical product design shapes the way people perceive and think and desire to want to be associated with Tesla, digital products can adopt some of those same principles.

Christian:

Yeah. So I guess my first reaction to that too, is thinking about how things change with brand and the physical world, bricks and mortar and things moving to even direct to consumer. So even taking a Warby Parker or Casper Mattress and those going digital first, even though they're physical products and changing their sort of imprint of the brand. So to your point, your Warby Parker glasses have, they've got a distinctly good design. And Casper mattresses as well, but a lot of their brand is manifested through the digital experience online.

Andy Kennedy:

Yeah. I gave an example of that. I mean, I have a Casper mattress.

Christian:

So how is a Casper mattress? I actually don't know, but if I were to guess, I imagine it's good. But that's the only because their brand impression on me.

Andy Kennedy:

It's phenomenal. It's so good.

Christian:

Note to the viewers, I can see Andy and he looks well rested, so he's not lying.

Andy Kennedy:

This is true. Even though I have a six month old at home, the Casper mattress still got me zonked out. Another direct to consumer brand, Caraway, which is a kind of pots and pans. And pots and pans, they're like one of those purchases, at least for our family that we just put off and put off and put off. And we're still rocking our old wedding pots and pans that we got seven years ago. And that was a direct to consumer purchase for us. So I've actually held physically in my hands at Macy's, at Ikea, at TJ Maxx, and all these other places, I've held them and almost purchased, but then put them down. And then I see a Caraway ad on Instagram, go to the site, gorgeous website. Photography is phenomenal. The reviews are amazing. And right there's a moment where, yeah, that's product brand manifested digitally where a growing subset of buyers are more comfortable doing their research and transacting online.

And so I didn't know what Caraway's product felt like in my hand, I had no idea. So the only opportunity that that business had to make an impact and to plant an idea in my head as to what it might be like to hold it was through brand. That the name of the business, the look and feel of the business, the type of photography, the tone of voice in the copy, the homes in which they did their photo shoots in. Those were all just subconsciously injecting ideas into my head. Like is this finally the time I'm going to drop $500 on ... and it was.

Christian:

That's an interesting ... so I'm going to try to make a loop here to tie a few things you said together with things that we've talked about on the podcast, when it comes to product led growth. Because you just described testing a pot in person, putting it down, then you go get very excited by a pot without seeing it. And you basically just described, I think in my mind, as someone who has learned brand, honestly, a lot from working with you, that it's about the expectation you set.

So, in Caraway's example, they've set this really strong expectation for you, and they've excited you to buy the pot. Versus the traditional model where we become so accustomed, I'm going to go feel it and see. When I think about it, I'm a software guy. I think that's what I'm usually trying to get people to say, you don't have to do it a demo or get someone to use your product to sell it.

You can do that in other ways. So I want to call that out right here for people listening to say, this is the example how you can use brand to set such a high expectation. Now I'm going to circle back to Tesla because your point there is Tesla still has really well designed products and you really like Caraway. You really like Casper. It all falls apart if you don't deliver. So it's not an excuse to say, it all matters on the upfront expectation. In fact, it actually sets it really high, right? So you'd have to deliver on it.

Andy Kennedy:

Yeah, you, you nailed it right there. They set the expectation so high on the site and then the unpacking experience when I actually received it. And then everything was just beautiful. And then when I went to go use it, I had really high expectations and high standards for it. It's the exact same thing in the digital world where you can't do one and not the other, right? In some instances say you have an amazing ... Say Caraway's product is absolutely phenomenal. Or say your digital product solves every problem that your users need to solve. And it does it flawlessly.

And its uptime is incredible across, up and down the board. Right. But you might never get that opportunity to get that product in their hands if you can't set that expectation and make them feel something and get them excited about it. So, yeah, I absolutely agree. It's up and down the board. Tesla's a good example where they have sort of front of the house, the buyer side to get me excited about the Tesla brand, and the products great. Apple is another fantastic company that does the same.

Christian:

So we've just mentioned some seminal examples with massive stock prices. And we're talking about the physical world. Now, if I'm an average listener, I'm imagining, all right, cool. So I'm not Apple, I don't have their budget and I don't make pots and pans. So let's translate this to the digital world. So all of these sort of things that you've been covering with brand, the expectations, the delivery on the product design, let's help close, close this loop for listeners when I'm thinking about brand for digital products.

So how do you take what you're describing there and apply it in the digital products sphere where there is not going to be something that you touch and feel or store that you walk into.

Andy Kennedy:

Yeah. So I think that what you need to do is think about the entire customer experience from before they're a customer, like pre customer customer experience. You might not like this question, but I'm going to go back to physical real quick. So in that journey, there were a lot of steps in that journey, right? The ad, browsing the website, clicking checkout, the email I received, the tracking number. Did it arrive on time, the unboxing experience, the messaging inside there, you need instructions, a little paper that came with it. Okay. So in a similar way, as the physical world where there's a buyer journey, it's the same digitally, right?

I'm going to go to the website transact and what's the onboarding experience look like? Is there like big dissonance between maybe it's a beautiful website that just speaks all the correct value props, it's beautiful photography and set these really high expectations and promises. And then it's like, okay, I'm ready. And I click. And the onboarding experience is whack. Or the product itself looks nothing like what I just saw on the site. And so no longer is it just acceptable, is it work? I mean, consumers, we just have such a high standard now because we're getting conditioned by the companies you just mentioned who have these billion dollar budgets. And so really throughout that entire buyer journey it has to align.

Christian:

I think you bring up, yeah. I mean, it really is in a lot of ways the same thing. If I reflect too, and you work on brands in the B to C space, also not just B to B, but you also work on brands that are in highly technical fields. You've worked on brands in biomedical, you worked on healthcare oriented brands. And what I've learned working with you is that you treat all of those the same way. Now, I think when a lot of people are listening to this that come from a more sales led background where a lot of software grows up, I think what I've reflected on is how often people have used salespeople or people to have conversations as a way to manage those expectations.

So you just said you use the product and it doesn't live up. Well in the past, you have a really great salesperson that holds your hand and builds that trust. When you're talking product led, it's almost imagine that person's not there. Now, all of the emphasis is like on the product itself to communicate that.

Ellie:

Well, if I could just jump in Andy because I think you're kind of getting at something that I think is really important that some people have the misconception that a brand is just your logo or it's just your website or it's just your colors. But I think in the same way that you were talking about the physical brand experience, even including things like the unboxing or the delivery time, or what even the packaging looks like before you open it, things like that, I think could you maybe speak to what makes up a product brand in the digital space that's beyond the logo and color palette?

Andy Kennedy:

So I'll get into like a little, hopefully not too much philosophy here, is we're meaning making people, we make meaning out of things. And so there's too much information. And so we have to judge. We're trying to fit businesses in boxes to understand them, to make sense of it. Can this product solve my problem or not? And a logo plays a role in that and the color plays a role in that. But they cannot possibly be separated as you step into the shoes of your prospective buyer or user. They're not like parsing out. It's like, Oh, okay. There's the logo. It's nice. Okay. What color did they use? Okay, blue family. Cool. Yeah. I'm digging that. And what type face is that? That's just unrealistic.

Right? And so it is the holistic experience. You're trying to plant ideas in people's minds about what ... or expectations in their mind about what it's like to use your product before you get a chance to get it in front of them. And that's why a logo and a color it's just not enough. All of it needs to seamlessly come together. I would add with that, tone of voice is another thing, right? There's certain categories where you got to be really buttoned up. There's other consumer categories where you push boundaries and demonstrate that you understand the user and demonstrate you get their world. And so, all of those things need to come together to plant ideas in people's heads so that you're going to get that chance for them to use that beautiful product that you spent so much time on.

Christian:

Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the tone of voice and all of that, because that was kind of big for my learning, because I was one of those people in the camp that thought it's just about the visual design. And I remember when we worked on for probably one of the first projects that I worked on with you, where I got a lesson in that was on Canvas, which there's a billion companies named Canvas. The one we worked with was text-based interviewing for recruiters. And Canvas had the name coming in. And the first thing that you kind of helped oversee was the mark and how it was used.

But then when we got to the website or some of the sales tools that we're enabling to go to market, you shifted the brand focus, not just from the visual logo and how that was being used, into all the way that it was being communicated to people. And you had a distinct way of speaking with that. Can you talk a little bit about how you make decisions on brand voice? What goes into that? How do you figure out what a voice is for a product brand?

Andy Kennedy:

Brand? Perfect tee up. I wanted to talk about that. Yeah. So the founder there, [Amin 00:19:43], he knew that his solution was way out in front. And he knew it was going to be uncomfortable for some recruiters and he was okay with it. And so I remember vividly him saying like, "This is going to turn some people off and we're after the true believers here." And so that right there is licensed to say, okay, who are the true believers? How do we reach them? What do they want to hear? What are their challenges? What might they get excited about? So in this instance with Canvas, they're recruiters, they're sitting on phone calls all day, 90 seconds into a call, it's 30 minutes long they might know that it's not the right person, but they have to do the rest of the 30 minute call. So they're burnt out.

They're tired of sitting on phone calls all day that they know that maybe the person's not the right fit. And so, one of the lines that I loved that came out of that work is "Recruiters are ready to fly. Canvas gives them super powers." And so that right there, Christian, your question is how do you know what tone of voice to take? It's all about, who's the person that you're trying to reach. You're going to offend some people in some instances. And that's good. Another analogy is like hot tea, cold tea. Don't make warm tea, nobody wants warm tea, either hot or cold.

So this is where that analogy applies is we went hot. We're going to offend some recruiters who think that text-based recruiting is crazy and that's fine. We're going to inspire the right people, the true believers though. And that manifested itself, not just in the copy, which [inaudible 00:21:07] some nice edge to it, but the look and feel as well.

They really wove in with one another, or really poppy look and feel to the voice complimented with a product that delivered John Moore just crushed it on our product design as well. So, that's one cool thing as well, when the product design is dope, you feel like you can do some cool things with brand as well. Because it's like, I'm going to set really, really high expectations here for the product, knowing that it's going to deliver.

And I had to think that Caraway and Tesla, and Apple, and Casper and others think the same way in the physical space.

Christian:

Yeah. I think you covered a lot and we could even riff on how product design and brand really interact, but we'll save that for another show. In fact, we've got some episodes that cover that a little bit. One thing though, that I think that you do well, that you may not be comfortable saying that you do well, but thankfully I work with you so I can call you out for it is because you talked about brand being a decision that you make based on the users you're trying to attract. And you also kind of hinted that be comfortable with who you are and who you're not in the cold tea, warm tea, hot tea, I think is a great analogy for those who never heard it. I'm only just now hearing it for the last few weeks, which is there are people who want hot tea and there are people who want cold tea.

You could average those, just give everybody warm tea. And they're like, nobody's really happy. But the thing that you also did, especially knowing that that client in [inaudible 00:22:31] you mentioned, you also do a good job listening to the founder or the person who's going to actually sell or represent the product itself in the early startup days. And I think that's true even with larger companies as well. It just might not necessarily be the CEO. It could be a CMO, it could be a VP of product. But there's an element to what you do too. And I'm calling this out for our audience because I want people to hear this part too, that I look at it too, that you have to have a brand that you feel comfortable in.

It has to be something that represents the people that are going to be representing it. When I look at the work you do to you, when I'm hearing the brainstorming, you often bring up the founder's personality or their way of speaking or too it's almost like the coupling or the translation layer between what the person is behind the brand and the people that are on the other side of it too.

Andy Kennedy:

That's particularly true with dynamic personalities in smaller companies. Absolutely. I sometimes use the analogy ... I like analogies. When we do brand work, I'm very aware that it's personal stuff. It's meant to be personal. It's meant to make people feel things about businesses. That's a weird thought. And so it's a lot like a new outfit, right? And so when I deliver work, I'm hyper aware that we're giving them a new outfit that's probably different than what they've been wearing in the past. And it's a little uncomfortable. Like maybe these jeans are too tight and these socks are funny. I don't like the colors in these socks. And I don't button my shirt all the way up to the top. What are you doing? And so, yeah, that's just a part of the process.

And that's one of the things that when we go through these processes, I encourage the clients that we're presenting to to just assure acknowledge your initial reaction, but sit on it as well. Because it takes time to settle in. And there is a point where it is about them. They need to sort of believe in it, but it's primarily about reaching their audience. And the cool thing about it is is when it reaches their audience, that they're going to love it as well. The founder will love it as well because they're sort of immersed in reaching their audience as well and helping their audience in solving that problem.

So they're not as separate sometimes as you might think. Amy Brown and Authenticx comes to mind where she's such a mission driven founder. And so a brand designed to speak to those who she wants to impact inevitably speaks to her.

Christian:

I've always joked too, as a UX designer and I had to present UX designs, I never really get a lot of happy reactions. It's just more like picking apart the design and be like, "Oh, I don't like that button there." I always look at the brand designers. You all are the only one who will get someone to like cry from just like joy. Anyway, I'm not bitter about it, but I'm just pointing this out for our audience, just FYI. On the other hand, and this is a segue to the final thing I want to cover, the one thing that I think UX design or product design gets away with is making it more clear how it affects the business itself. It's really easy to tie UX design to usability, to run tests, to make sure that it's succeeding, things like that.

What I think is a lot more challenging on the brand side is really defending the business value. I feel like a lot of the value of brand is really hidden. I mean, it's there.You can look at it, you mentioned Tesla and Apple and you can almost be like, "Well, there you go. There's the impact of brand." But to actually do that, to get there, the steps are a little bit murkier. So you've always done a pretty good job of sort of tying it to business in some ways. So when you think about the business impact of brand, how do you make that connection for yourself?

Andy Kennedy:

Yeah, that's the big one. So I like to ask a question to the question and that's like, do you care about your audience's opinion about your business? And if the answer to that, it's hard to say no to, the answer to that is yes then I would say brand identity design is the proven way to shape opinions. That's what its job is. It's not a full stop, right? Brand identity design cannot all-in-one solve your PR problems, perception problems, but setting a correct foundation and using design to plant ideas in your audience's head so that they see you in a certain way, it is a proven way ... using the power of that design, it's an easy way. In my opinion, it's a really easy way. I mean, I'm looking at Target right now. They just came out with a really great new line of Market Pantry products.

Good and Gather is one of them. And it's their seltzer water. And it's like gorgeous, you know? And so I'm sitting there thinking, "I guarantee you that those numbers are just through the roof." Guarantee it. I mean, Ellie, you're shaking your head right now. And so what did they have to do to, to get that to happen? It's the same thing as seltzer water. They made it look beautiful and aspirational. And people wanted to have it in their cart and in their home, and in their bellies. And so the return on that investment is crazy. So that's a physical product example again. But the answer to your question is I like to go back, do you care about the opinions that people have about your audience [inaudible 00:28:00] brand is a wonderful tool and wonderful starting place to create a foundation upon to shape people's opinions?

Christian:

I think that's great. I think that's a great way to end this too, because you stayed away from saying like, oh, it's all about metrics and all that, which I know you can do. You can add that. But I think the way you framed it is great because I think a lot of companies just need to start there to even understand that value. And a lot of these things kind of fall into place. Well, Andy, thank you so much for joining us. This was fascinating. I hope this was useful for everybody too to sort of like if this is your first time experiencing brand Andy's a great guy to learn from. So thanks for giving your time to us, Andy.

Andy Kennedy:

Yeah, I was a little nervous coming on. I've never done a podcast before, but this was really fun. I get it. I see why this is really fun. And Christian you're really good at this too. You make it easy.

Christian:

Next episode, we're going to hear from John Howell, a brand experience designer who at the time of the interview was at Lyft, but is now at Robinhood, which to be candid are two of my favorite brands out there. So this is a great conversation with him, where he talks about brand experience, which is a little bit different than just thinking about product brand itself. Even though Andy also touched on that too. You're also going to hear from co-founders of Evolve Media, a startup news app built to take the bias out of news.

As usual. I am your faithful host. Well, one half of your cohost Christian Beck. Anne will be with me on the next episode. But thanks for listening to this episode of Better Product. And again, I pitched it at the beginning, if you haven't already please join the community to get in touch and get access to more resources at Betterproduct.community.